Chapter 68: Debate (Part 2)

  Song Rong spoke, and Tian Zikai naturally could not remain silent. After all, the two men's identities were equal, so he said: "Mr. Song's theory is a bit too biased. In life, one should take self-cultivation, family management, governance of the country, and bringing peace to the world as their own responsibility. If they are wealthy, they should help others; if they are poor, they should cultivate themselves. Only then can they be considered to have lived a fulfilling life. If one takes 'non-action' as the foundation of their conduct, but does nothing, wasting their life away, only engaging in empty talk and not doing practical things, it is of no benefit to the country or to the Tao. What good is that?"

  Shenzi also said: "Song Furen, I think that if 'non-action' is used as the basis for self-cultivation of a certain person, it is not wrong. But if it is used as the way to govern the country, then it will be a great mistake. Now there are six countries standing together, with Hu in the north and Yue in the south, Yi in the east and Rong in the west, all four barbarian tribes surrounding us like tigers and wolves. If we use 'non-action' as the way to govern the country, then the country will surely perish."

  Song Rong shook his head and sighed, "Tian Fuzi is already over sixty years old, it's hard to understand the great way of 'non-action', but I didn't expect you, being so young, would also be obsessed with 'action'. It's really a pity." He raised his wine cup, took a sip, and fell silent.

  Tian Zikai often debated with him, knowing that this was Song Rong's temperament. The Taoist teachings were always vague and elusive, shrouded in mist and cloud, and were actually less welcome than Confucianism. Therefore, the Confucians never considered the Taoists as their opponents, so they didn't mind.

  Gao Yuan listened and nodded slightly, saying that the Taoist concept of non-action seems reasonable but actually cannot withstand scrutiny. To put it bluntly, if you practice non-action while others practice action, it is the non-action approach that will perish first. Therefore, Shen Zong's argument is based on reality. Although in many fields, especially economics, there are also ideas of "non-interference" that seem similar to the concept of non-action, this non-interference does not mean doing nothing, but rather following economic laws and doing what should be done while refraining from doing what should not be done.

  At this time, the Mohist scholar Zhai Jin said: "The Taoists are good at empty talk and cannot be taken, but the Confucians only talk about benevolence and righteousness, and the Legalists only emphasize severe punishment and strict law, which are also difficult to achieve great things."

  Shen Chen turned to Di Jin and said: "I wish to hear your esteemed opinion."

  Di Jin said: "Now the world is in great chaos, it's not that the rites are collapsing and the music is bad, the upper and lower classes are out of order. It's because the people have three hardships: those who are hungry cannot eat, those who are cold cannot wear clothes, and those who labor cannot rest. If these three hardships of the people are not eliminated, then the world will never be able to achieve stability." He looked at Shen Chen and said: "And as for the Legalists' way of governing the country, they can only obtain national wealth, a large population, and active penal policies. Therefore, even if it can make the country rich and strong in military power, it is still difficult to preserve it for long. It's really abandoning the root and pursuing the branches, foolish and unattainable."

  Even for a moment, I couldn't think of an answer.

  "Then, sir, how do you think these three troubles can be eliminated?"

  Mozi said: "Only by using the methods of my Mohist school, which are mutual love, mutual benefit, frugality, simple funerals, rejection of music and rejection of aggression. Mutual love means that fathers cannot privately love their sons, elder brothers cannot privately love their younger brothers, and younger brothers cannot privately love their older brothers. Instead, fathers should regard all people in the world as their sons, elder brothers should regard all people in the world as their younger brothers, and younger brothers should regard all people in the world as their older brothers. Mutual benefit means that those with strength use it to help others, those with wealth use it to help others, and those with knowledge use it to help others, turning private benefits into public benefits for everyone. Frugality means not wasting resources, only using what is necessary: clothes should be warm enough to keep the body from cold, food should be enough to fill the belly, houses should be able to shelter from rain, and everything else should be discarded to avoid tempting greedy thoughts. Simple funerals mean eliminating private emotions, mourning and offering sacrifices are just a waste of resources and actually harmful; rejection of music means forbidding indulgence in desires, music is only useful for rituals but will only tempt people to indulge in desires, and rituals have social hierarchy which hinders mutual love and should also be prohibited. Rejection of aggression means eliminating greed, evil comes from greed, the constant wars between states are all caused by greedy hearts, therefore to eliminate greedy thoughts, we must stop aggressive actions. Only then can those who are hungry get food, those who are cold get clothes, and those who labor get rest. Only then can disorder be turned into order, and the world be at peace."

  "Sir, your words are reasonable, but the love of a father for his son and a son for his father is natural, even birds and beasts cannot avoid it, let alone humans. If mutual love does not conform to nature, how can it be carried out? And if private interests are transformed into public interests, wouldn't everyone be able to gain without labor, willing to work less but not more, and mutually benefit each other? In this way, neither mutual love nor mutual benefit can be achieved, let alone frugality, simplicity in funerals, non-contention, and non-aggression."

  Di Jin was taken aback for a moment, and said calmly: "It's up to people to make it happen. Miss thinks that 'mutual love and mutual benefit' is not feasible, but I believe this is the way to bring peace to the world. Therefore, I also take it as my duty to spread this doctrine, even if I die without regret."

  Jun Yu Zhongxiu nodded slightly and said: "Although Zhongxiu does not agree with Mr.'s words, but Mr. is deeply admired for his determination to sacrifice himself for the sake of righteousness."

  And Gao Yuan also looked at Chun Yu Zhong Xiu with a different eye, because her comments on the Mohist school were incisive and to the point. The Mohist doctrine is essentially an absolute egalitarianism, which is overly idealized. Although it looks beautiful, it is impossible to implement in reality. So he nodded in agreement.

  But Chun Yu Zhong Xiu immediately saw Gao Yuan's action, so he turned to Gao Yuan again and smiled: "Doctor Gao nodded just now, I don't know what it means. Is it agreeing with my opinion or agreeing with Mr. Di's theory?"

  Gao Yuan was taken aback for a moment, then said: "Of course I agree with Miss's opinion."

  Sun Zhong smiled and said: "Then, Doctor, which school of thought do you think is the orthodox way, Confucianism or Legalism?"

  Gao Yuan couldn't help but laugh wryly. Isn't this girl pushing herself into the fire? Now, if he says that one family is orthodox, he will inevitably offend the other family. Gao Yuan isn't an academic, and he doesn't have any grudges against either the Confucian or Legalist schools. Why would he want to offend anyone? But now that Xunzi has asked him this question, he can't just stay silent.

  "So I thought for a moment and suddenly said, 'Mr. Shen, Mr. Gongsun, I'd like to ask you both, the Legalists and Confucians are like fire and water, but what exactly is the difference between the two schools of thought?"

  As soon as this sentence was spoken, everyone in the room was stunned, Chun Yu Zhong Xiu's pair of autumnal eyes that could capture one's soul stared firmly at Gao Yuan, and Chun Yu Bo's eyes, which had been silent all along, also flashed a sharp light, Shen Shen and Gong Sun Long both fell into deep thought.

  Although no one has ever verified when the controversy between Legalism and Confucianism began, few people have seriously studied what differences there are in the ideas of these two schools of thought, why they are like water and fire that cannot coexist. It seems as if the two schools were born to be opposed to each other.

  After a while, Gong Sunlong said: "The Legalists advocate governing the country by law, not by moral teachings, but by severe punishment and strict laws to control the people, making them fear the law and obey the officials. The Confucians, on the other hand, govern by following rituals and moral principles, using benevolence and righteousness to rule the country, and virtue to win over the people, teaching and transforming the common people, so that they willingly submit."

  Shen Zhen opened his mouth, originally wanting to say something, but still endured. Although Gong Sunlong's words had the intention of deliberately belittling the Legalists and beautifying the Confucians, overall they were in line with the ideas of both schools. At this time, everyone's eyes focused on Gao Yuan again, because this question was raised by him, now that Gong Sunlong has answered, it depends on how he responds.

  Gao Yuan did not comment on Gong Sun Long's answer, but said: "Mr. Gong Sun, I have a question to ask you first."

  Gongsun Long said: "Please ask your question, sir."

  Gao Yuan Dao: "If someone kills another without reason, how would Master Gong Sun deal with it?"

  Gongsun Long said: "A murderer must pay with his life; this is the natural order of heaven and earth. He should be beheaded."

  The plateau nodded and turned to Shen Chen, saying: "Then what if Mr. Shen is decisive?"

  Shen Cheng said: "Kill without pardon, behead at once."

  Gao Yuan smiled slightly and looked around at the crowd, saying: "Everyone has heard, right? The Confucians and Legalists are not the same in their methods of dealing with murderers?"

  Everyone was stunned after hearing this, some were in a daze, some were deep in thought, and some were bewildered. However, the corner of Chun Yu Bo's mouth slightly curled up into a smile. And Chun Yu Zhong Xiu smiled and said: "Doctor, do you mean that the main ideas of Confucianism and Legalism are actually the same?"

  Gao Yuan nodded and said: "In my humble opinion, Confucianism and Legalism are actually similar in many ways, it can be said that they have different approaches but the same goal."

  Song Rong, who originally didn't want to speak, couldn't help but laugh and say: "The Confucian and Legalist schools have been fighting for hundreds of years. I've never heard anyone say that the two schools' principles are different paths with the same destination. So aren't these hundreds of years of mutual struggle between the two schools a huge joke?"

  Zha Jia was also somewhat surprised, saying: "The words of the great man, I also find it hard to understand. How can Confucianism and Legalism be the same? Can you explain in detail?"

  Gao Yuan Dao: "Actually, everyone knows that many legalist scholars were originally Confucians. Guan Zhong studied the six arts of Confucianism in his youth; Wu Qi was a student of the great Confucian Zengzi; and when Shang Yang first met Duke Xiao of Qin, he also advised him to govern with Confucianism, practicing benevolence and righteousness. Han Fei and Li Si were both students of Xunzi. Given the close relationship between Confucianism and Legalism, it's normal that they share many similarities in thought. Didn't everyone just hear? 'A life for a life,' regardless of whether you're Confucian or Legalist, is a principle that is recognized by all."

  Song Rong smiled and said: "So, scholars of both Confucianism and Legalism, what do you have to say?"

  Actually, Tianshi Kai, Gongsun Long and Shenshen did not agree with Gaoyuan's words. The Confucianism and Legalism schools had been debating for hundreds of years, and it was not something that could be changed by just a few sentences from Gaoyuan. However, Gongsun Long and Shenshen were still young at the time and were somewhat bewildered by Gaoyuan, unable to find the right words to refute him.

  At this time, Tian Que also couldn't sit still and said: "Just because the doctor only used the word 'kill' to repay his life, he thought that Confucianism and Legalism were similar, but isn't there some bias? The Legalists are still established with severe laws, using violence to govern the country, using strict punishments to intimidate the people. When the people commit crimes, they violate the law, and when one person commits a crime, the whole family is implicated and punished together. The people fear the officials like tigers, and the officials regard the people as ants. On the other hand, our Confucianism respects etiquette and propriety, emphasizes education and moral transformation, talks about benevolence and righteousness, governs with virtue, and loves the people. The officials love the people, and the people respect the officials. The world is greatly governed, and the punishments of the law are only used when there is no other choice. What a huge difference! How can it be mixed up with Legalism?"