Chapter 67: Debate (Part 1)

  "Mr. Sun, I recall that Xunzi also said, 'Although they have it all, yet they are not quite there. They possess many talents, but when it comes to the accomplishments of kings and nobles, they fall short. Why is this? It's because they lack refinement. Therefore, it is said: 'Pure and kingly, mixed and hegemonic, none can match.' This was also a weakness of Qin."

  The gist of this passage is: The Qin state was not perfect and still had its worries. Although the Qin state had many advantages, it was still far from meeting the standards of the ancient sage-kings because it lacked Confucian scholars. Simply upholding moral principles to govern the country could make one an ancient sage-king, while using a mix of moral principles and self-interest to govern the country could make one a hegemon, but the Qin state could not do either of these things well, which was also its shortcoming.

  Because the Qin state was governed by Legalist thought and is recognized as a representative of the achievements of Legalist thought, while Confucianism and Legalism have always been like fire and water, therefore praising the Qin state is actually praising Legalism, and praising Legalism is also disparaging Confucianism. However, Xunzi was a master-level scholar of Confucianism, so when Sun Wenbo quoted his words to praise the Qin state, Tian Zikai could not attack this passage as unrealistic, and had no choice but to take out the following passage where Xunzi praised the Qin state.

  Xunzi entered the state of Qin, roughly during the era of King Zhaoxiang of Qin. Although at that time Qin had already become the strongest country in the world, in the eyes of Confucian scholars, Qin was still a culturally backward and uncivilized nation. Furthermore, the six eastern states deliberately publicized the violent, cruel, and brutal side of Qin, so in the view of various countries, Qin remained an image of a barbaric, backward, and warlike nation.

  Xunzi described the situation in Qin as almost identical to the legendary utopian world of ancient China, despite still pointing out its shortcomings. It can be said that Xunzi's evaluation of Qin was quite high, and at that time it indeed caused a considerable stir. Because even with some shortcomings, Qin's national politics and social conditions had already far surpassed those of the six eastern states at that time. Therefore, for the six eastern states and Confucian scholars, this was not a small irony. However, since then, Qin has also attracted the interest of many scholars, including many Confucian scholars who have flocked to Qin along with scholars from other schools.

  It's not just Xunzi, Sima Qian also gave a very high evaluation of Qin after Shang Yang's reform, and even used phrases like "roads are free from robbers, mountains have no thieves, families are well-off, people are brave in public wars but afraid of private fights, and the countryside is greatly governed".

  However, after the Han Dynasty, because Confucianism intentionally smeared the Qin state, turning it into a synonym for cruelty and tyranny, everything the Qin state did was confined to this scope. Xunzi and Sima Qian's positive evaluations of the Qin state were also ignored by some scholars.

  After hearing Tian Zikai's words, Chunyu Bao also smiled slightly and said: "Master, in my opinion, the current Qin state already has many Confucian disciples, so there is no need to say this next sentence after Master Xun."

  Tian Muzhang was speechless, after all, it had been nearly thirty years since he entered Qin with Xunzi. Chunyu Bao said that there were Confucian disciples in the state of Qin now, and Tian Muzhang couldn't say that there weren't any.

  At this time, Shen Chen smiled and said: "The experience of Xunzi and Sunzi in the state of Qin is enough to show that only by taking law as the foundation can one achieve great governance. Therefore, if the six states want to rise up and become strong, they must employ legalists, change laws and innovate, take law as the foundation, and the country will be greatly governed." As a legalist scholar, he would not let go of this opportunity to vigorously promote his own academic achievements.

  Tian Que Kai let out a cold snort, he himself being of high status, naturally wouldn't go argue with Shen Chen, thus he gave his disciple a glance, Gong Sun Long immediately understood and said: "Mr. Shen's words are perhaps too extreme? Even Xunzi said 'Perhaps there is no Confucianism, this is also one of Qin's shortcomings' It can be seen that the words of the Legalist school are not good strategies for governing the country, even if they can be strong for a time, but it's hard to last long. Only by respecting our Confucian great way, promoting benevolent government, ruling the country with etiquette, is this the orthodox way of governing the country. This is why the Zhou dynasty could establish a nation for 800 years, prospering without decline, and Duke Wen and Duke Wu of Zhou can be called saints, all because they promoted Confucianism, ruled the country with etiquette, far surpassing the Legalist way."

  Every time such a gathering, scholars from various schools of thought, although there were debates, could still be harmonious and peaceful. However, as soon as the Legalists and Confucians participated together, they would inevitably be at odds with each other, and it was impossible to avoid arguing until their faces turned red. Moreover, this time Xun Yu Zhongxiu was present, Shen Shen and Gongsun Long were both young men, even if they didn't have any ulterior motives towards Xun Yu Zhongxiu, they still wanted to make a good impression in front of the beauty, leave a good impression. Therefore, as soon as they saw Gongsun Long speak, Song Rong and Di Jin knew that today's good show was about to begin again.

  Indeed, Shenzi was well-prepared for this debate. When Gong Sunlong cited the example of the Zhou Dynasty, he immediately said: "The Zhou Dynasty was founded on Confucianism, but as time passed and circumstances changed, Confucianism had long since become incompatible with the times. After King Ping moved east, several hundred years ago, there was Guan Zhong who assisted Qi, eliminated its flaws and innovated, making Qi the dominant power in the world, marking the beginning of Legalism. After the three families split from Jin, there were Li Kui who changed laws in Wei, Wu Qi who changed laws in Chu, Shen Buhai who changed laws in Han, and Shang Yang who changed laws in Qin. These four countries all used Legalist methods to govern, and they all became powerful for a time. I ask you, which country has risen to power using Confucianism over the past several hundred years? The Zhou Dynasty was precisely because it stubbornly clung to Confucianism and did not know how to adapt that it ultimately perished. This lesson should serve as a warning to later generations."

  "Gongsun Long naturally would not show weakness, saying: 'But the Zhou Dynasty was able to establish a country for 800 years, could it be that it wasn't due to the merits of Confucianism? How can you say it doesn't fit the times, and yet the Zhou Dynasty perished, precisely because Zhou Tian lost virtue, and couldn't firmly uphold the Confucian way. And using Legalist methods to govern the country, being strong for only a few years and weak, flourishing for only over a decade and then declining. Now the State of Han has perished, the State of Wei is weak, the State of Chu is in decline, although there is Qin which alone remains powerful, but it's also difficult to last long. It can be seen that Legalist learning is not the great way.'"

  Shen Zhen shook his head repeatedly and said: "Whether Zhou Guo was unable to adhere to the Confucian way and perish is still difficult to determine, but since King Ping's eastward migration, there have been three masters in Confucianism, namely Kong, Meng, and Xun. They are all masters of their generation. I respect and admire them, but even these three masters had no achievements in governing the country. Whether Confucianism can be applied to the present world can also be seen from this. As for what Mr. Gongsun said earlier about the states of Han, Wei, and Chu, they were unable to persist in implementing the laws established by the Legalists and abandoned them halfway, which is why their periods of prosperity were not long. On the other hand, Qin Guo has been adhering to the laws established by Shang Yang since his reform, and it has lasted for six generations without decline, already over a hundred years. It is now even more prosperous than before, so who dares to say that it cannot develop in the long term? Even if it surpasses the Zhou Dynasty, it's not necessarily impossible."

  Gongsun Long let out a sigh and said, "Confucius, Mencius, and Xunzi, the three masters, have made no achievements in governing the country. This is because the rulers of various countries do not know how to use people, if they had used them, they would have become sages and kings long ago. Moreover, the Confucian disciples are all over the world, their numbers far exceed those of other schools. Given time, they will certainly be used by the rulers. As for the Legalists, who rule the country with severe punishments and laws, they are just practicing a policy of deceiving and fooling the people. How can this last long? Although Qin was lucky enough to survive for over a hundred years, it is impossible to surpass the Zhou Dynasty."

  Shen Chen's eyebrows rose, just about to retort, when Chun Yu Zhong Xiuji smiled and said: "The future is vague and unpredictable. Even if there were a great diviner, it would be hard to predict how many years Qin can last. Let's not argue, but focus on the present and make our judgments then."

  She opened her mouth and happened to relieve the siege for both of them, otherwise, they would not have been able to argue clearly about how many years Qin Guo could exist. Therefore, Gao Yuan was somewhat admiring of her, and it was indeed worthy of the name of a talented woman, one sentence that hit the vital point. And let both of them save face.

  However, judging from the debate between Shen Zhi and Gongsun Long just now, Shen Zhi has grasped the weakness of Confucianism. Since the Spring and Autumn period and the Warring States period, any country that uses Legalist reforms to govern has been able to become powerful. In terms of governing the country, Confucianism indeed does not have many achievements to show for it, to the point where it can be said that they have accomplished nothing. During their lifetimes, Confucius, Mencius, and Xunzi, the three Confucian masters, were all famous throughout the land, and each of them had traveled extensively throughout the country, going from state to state, promoting their academic ideas to the rulers of various states. Although many rulers treated them with great courtesy and respect, unfortunately, none of them entrusted them with important responsibilities or adopted their academic ideas to govern the country.

  If it were just two, one could say that the monarchs lacked discernment, but since all the monarchs failed to adopt Confucianism as a way of governing, then the reason must be sought within Confucianism itself. Unfortunately, these three masters, as well as later Confucian scholars, without exception, did not examine the strengths and weaknesses of Confucianism, instead shifting the blame onto the monarchs of various countries. Later, some people evaluated this, believing that these three masters were able to persist in their ideals, refusing to compromise with those in power, unlike later Confucians who flattered monarchs and distorted Confucianism shamelessly, and were much stronger than them.

  But Gongsun Long was also very reasonable. In terms of governing the country, Confucianism indeed did not achieve anything, but he emphasized that Confucianism had many disciples, which was exactly the biggest shortcoming of Legalism.

  Just then, Song Rong said: "Both gentlemen are erudite scholars with brilliant arguments and should have achieved great success. Unfortunately, both of you have already gone astray, which is truly regrettable."

  Shen Zhi and Gong Sunlong were somewhat unhappy, but Song Rong was also a well-known scholar of Zhao State, and in terms of age, he was the elder of the two, so they did not dare to lightly refute him. On the contrary, they said in unison: "We wish to hear your teachings."

  Song Rong smiled slightly and said, "In life, everyone considers having achievements as the foundation for establishing oneself. Kings, princes, generals, and ministers build merits and establish their careers, stand out from the crowd, and leave a name that lasts for thousands of years, all to show off their 'achievements'. However, they don't know that considering having achievements as the foundation for establishing oneself is still a great mistake. Only 'non-action' is the highest and most profound way in the world."

  Jun Yu Bo still did not speak, and Jun Yu Zhong Shu said: "If according to Song Fuzi's meaning, can it be said that only doing nothing is the right way?"

  Song Rong smiled and nodded, saying: "It is precisely because everyone wants to 'achieve something' that desires are greatly stirred up, resulting in countless disputes and all kinds of evil. If everyone could take 'non-action' as the foundation for their conduct, then the world would be clear and pure, and people's minds would not be disturbed. Therefore, a true sage absolutely cannot promote 'action', but should demonstrate to the world the way of 'non-action'. Only when the way of 'non-action' is achieved can the world be greatly governed."